This is absolutely fantastic. I am flabbergasted at your skill in navigating the labyrinth of concepts and thought structures. I have been wrestling with all of the topics of this investigation for over a decade and you here have blow my mind by finding a new way forward in finding a whole system of meta patterns that join these disjointed patterns.
This is seriously incredible insight.
Im going to have to seriously work through and integrate these insights into ways that I navigate my collection of conceptual structures.
Having a lived experience of moving in and out of multiple indestructible systems in my life and also then having journeyed into the real and a complete deterritorialisation of self and world to the point of identity dissolution and then psychosis. A deep encounter with the real. Then having learnt to reconstruct cognitive structures and jump between "indestructible systems" I have a real fascination with every thing you are laying out here.
The influence of Taleb's Antifragile and Skin in the game are also important to me. Hofstadter's Godel Escher and Bach, I also find essential.
I also like the resonace between Lacan's "The Real" and Nick Land's "Outside" or "Fanged Noumena", and the manifestations of D and Gs schizo analysis.
So I agree that there is some kind of deep human cognitive defence mechanism that tries to keep "The Real", "The Outside" at bay. Your exploration of the indestructible systems of ideology reminded me of Jung's conception of religion as a psychological container. Something that is there is basically keep the Real and Outside at bay. I'll have to go back and look at Jung to remind myself how he conceptualised the Lacanian Real and Landian Outside because he definitely was also grappling with this.
But in terms of your arguments about ideology's as indestructible systems, that rationality cannot escape, doesn't Godel's incompleteness theorem, provide the loose thread that unravels the whole tapestry.
For me tarrying with Hofstadter's Godel Escher and Bach for several years left me with a distinct undermining of my rationalities ability to maintain indestructible ideological systems.
Once I had been inducted into and out of multiple systems, then had an ability to move between systems, while seeking the system that had the highest truth value, then I got stuck on Godel, Escher and Bach, and I then could no longer stay within an indestructible system, as every system would eventually reveal a loose thread that would unravel the whole system.
This led me to D and Gs schizo analysis which caused a psychotic break until I constructed an incomplete and destrctible and self manufactued psychology container that gave me a solid island of ignorance to stand on in the sea of the Real Outside.
So from my experience there seems to be a way out of your bind.
I believe that if people can follow this process of moving from one system to another and then if they explore Godel's incompleteness theorem and learn to apply it, if rationality is valued above psychological safety then the rationality will self destroy all ideology containers for the mind, this will dump the thinker into a state of psychosis which then needs to be learnt how to navigate.
So people ideally would first be taught how to self construct ideological containers. Not because they are true, but because they keep the mind safe from dissolving. So that when the thinker does experience the psychosis of the Real Outside that they can rebuild their personality and then return to the ordinary world as an alien, who knows how to navigate the seas of the outside and the solid ground of the island of ignorance that are your indestructible ideological systems.
So here I am proposing a new meta system to contain the systems that you proposed. But my proposed system "the island of ignorance" ideology is incomplete and will fall apart under examination.
I want to subject it to Mikey from theory undergrounds Tribunal Zero and see if the threads of incompleteness can pull it a part.
But I feel like perhaps I have made my own indestructible system in that it contains its own destruction. I guess this is similar to Hegel's system.
By including the outside and its own incompleteness as an axiom of the system the system becomes complete. So perhaps I am providing your point that the system is internally consistent and thus indestructible.
But again Godel's incompleteness theorem would say that at some point on the strange loop it will not be able to prove its internal consistency.
You’ve made my day Pete, goodness—work was a little crazy, but this comment has brightened everything. Thank you, so much, for your kind words, the time you took to read this work, and the time you took to share your comments. Your spot on to ask if Gödel actually counters the argument here, and a key move I want to make is that Gödel paradoxically finishes and spreads the problem of internal consistency, precisely by making inconsistency part of consistency. That would seem to address the issue, but it actually makes it “invincible.” The full argument for this is found in the paper tiled “The Map Is Indestructible,” broken up into three parts, but you can also just listen to the audio summaries on YouTube. Again, your comment is spot on, and I hope you find my explanations fruitful.
Thank you also for sharing your personal journey and how it relates to this work, and I’m a big fan of Hofstadter (I talk about Surfaces and Essences a lot notably in Belonging Again II).
‘So people ideally would first be taught how to self construct ideological containers. Not because they are true, but because they keep the mind safe from dissolving. So that when the thinker does experience the psychosis of the Real Outside that they can rebuild their personality and then return to the ordinary world as an alien, who knows how to navigate the seas of the outside and the solid ground of the island of ignorance that are your indestructible ideological systems.’ – That’s really well said.
‘By including the outside and its own incompleteness as an axiom of the system the system becomes complete. So perhaps I am providing your point that the system is internally consistent and thus indestructible.’ – That’s exactly it!
Thanks again Pete, and may you have the best of nights!
Hi OG Rose. I think its daniel? I wanted to share something with you, I've been trying to come up with a way to use the godel's incompleteness theorem to find a door out of one internally consistent system into another. I think that by using techniques from CCRU lemurian time sorcery I may have found a way to gate between internally complete systems. He is my first attempt at it. https://islandofignorance.substack.com/p/the-temporal-and-eternal
This is absolutely fantastic. I am flabbergasted at your skill in navigating the labyrinth of concepts and thought structures. I have been wrestling with all of the topics of this investigation for over a decade and you here have blow my mind by finding a new way forward in finding a whole system of meta patterns that join these disjointed patterns.
This is seriously incredible insight.
Im going to have to seriously work through and integrate these insights into ways that I navigate my collection of conceptual structures.
Having a lived experience of moving in and out of multiple indestructible systems in my life and also then having journeyed into the real and a complete deterritorialisation of self and world to the point of identity dissolution and then psychosis. A deep encounter with the real. Then having learnt to reconstruct cognitive structures and jump between "indestructible systems" I have a real fascination with every thing you are laying out here.
The influence of Taleb's Antifragile and Skin in the game are also important to me. Hofstadter's Godel Escher and Bach, I also find essential.
I also like the resonace between Lacan's "The Real" and Nick Land's "Outside" or "Fanged Noumena", and the manifestations of D and Gs schizo analysis.
So I agree that there is some kind of deep human cognitive defence mechanism that tries to keep "The Real", "The Outside" at bay. Your exploration of the indestructible systems of ideology reminded me of Jung's conception of religion as a psychological container. Something that is there is basically keep the Real and Outside at bay. I'll have to go back and look at Jung to remind myself how he conceptualised the Lacanian Real and Landian Outside because he definitely was also grappling with this.
But in terms of your arguments about ideology's as indestructible systems, that rationality cannot escape, doesn't Godel's incompleteness theorem, provide the loose thread that unravels the whole tapestry.
For me tarrying with Hofstadter's Godel Escher and Bach for several years left me with a distinct undermining of my rationalities ability to maintain indestructible ideological systems.
Once I had been inducted into and out of multiple systems, then had an ability to move between systems, while seeking the system that had the highest truth value, then I got stuck on Godel, Escher and Bach, and I then could no longer stay within an indestructible system, as every system would eventually reveal a loose thread that would unravel the whole system.
This led me to D and Gs schizo analysis which caused a psychotic break until I constructed an incomplete and destrctible and self manufactued psychology container that gave me a solid island of ignorance to stand on in the sea of the Real Outside.
So from my experience there seems to be a way out of your bind.
I believe that if people can follow this process of moving from one system to another and then if they explore Godel's incompleteness theorem and learn to apply it, if rationality is valued above psychological safety then the rationality will self destroy all ideology containers for the mind, this will dump the thinker into a state of psychosis which then needs to be learnt how to navigate.
So people ideally would first be taught how to self construct ideological containers. Not because they are true, but because they keep the mind safe from dissolving. So that when the thinker does experience the psychosis of the Real Outside that they can rebuild their personality and then return to the ordinary world as an alien, who knows how to navigate the seas of the outside and the solid ground of the island of ignorance that are your indestructible ideological systems.
So here I am proposing a new meta system to contain the systems that you proposed. But my proposed system "the island of ignorance" ideology is incomplete and will fall apart under examination.
I want to subject it to Mikey from theory undergrounds Tribunal Zero and see if the threads of incompleteness can pull it a part.
But I feel like perhaps I have made my own indestructible system in that it contains its own destruction. I guess this is similar to Hegel's system.
By including the outside and its own incompleteness as an axiom of the system the system becomes complete. So perhaps I am providing your point that the system is internally consistent and thus indestructible.
But again Godel's incompleteness theorem would say that at some point on the strange loop it will not be able to prove its internal consistency.
Throwing us into the outside again.
I will have to tarry with this at length.
Thank you for your contribution to humanity.
This is excellent.
You’ve made my day Pete, goodness—work was a little crazy, but this comment has brightened everything. Thank you, so much, for your kind words, the time you took to read this work, and the time you took to share your comments. Your spot on to ask if Gödel actually counters the argument here, and a key move I want to make is that Gödel paradoxically finishes and spreads the problem of internal consistency, precisely by making inconsistency part of consistency. That would seem to address the issue, but it actually makes it “invincible.” The full argument for this is found in the paper tiled “The Map Is Indestructible,” broken up into three parts, but you can also just listen to the audio summaries on YouTube. Again, your comment is spot on, and I hope you find my explanations fruitful.
Thank you also for sharing your personal journey and how it relates to this work, and I’m a big fan of Hofstadter (I talk about Surfaces and Essences a lot notably in Belonging Again II).
‘So people ideally would first be taught how to self construct ideological containers. Not because they are true, but because they keep the mind safe from dissolving. So that when the thinker does experience the psychosis of the Real Outside that they can rebuild their personality and then return to the ordinary world as an alien, who knows how to navigate the seas of the outside and the solid ground of the island of ignorance that are your indestructible ideological systems.’ – That’s really well said.
‘By including the outside and its own incompleteness as an axiom of the system the system becomes complete. So perhaps I am providing your point that the system is internally consistent and thus indestructible.’ – That’s exactly it!
Thanks again Pete, and may you have the best of nights!
Hi OG Rose. I think its daniel? I wanted to share something with you, I've been trying to come up with a way to use the godel's incompleteness theorem to find a door out of one internally consistent system into another. I think that by using techniques from CCRU lemurian time sorcery I may have found a way to gate between internally complete systems. He is my first attempt at it. https://islandofignorance.substack.com/p/the-temporal-and-eternal
This is Daniel! And amazing! I'll give this a read today. Thanks Pete! Very interested to read your thoughts on this topic.
Thank you. This is excellent. I will have to dig deeper into your work. I will look for the Map is Indestructible and start there.
Thank you.